This is the edited and translated transcript of The AIDEM – Risala Update PollTalk with SM Yasin, Joint Secretary of the Anjuman Intazamiya Masajid, the trust that manages the functions of the historic Gyanvapi masjid in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh.

Venkitesh Ramakrishnan: PollTalk is today in Varanasi from where Prime Minister Narendra Modi has won the election twice and has filed his nomination for the third time. Joining us in this PollTalk is SM Yasin, Joint Secretary of the Anjuman Intazamiya Masajid, an organisation which has made great contribution in the social life of this ancient city. The organisation also looks after the day to day affairs of Gyanvapi mosque. Yasin ji, we all know that we are in the midst of a very crucial election. But in the last three-four months or we can say the last one year, the Anjuman Intazamiya Masajid has had to face big challenges, including in the form of a couple of court orders. On the basis of one of these orders, Hindu worship is taking place in some parts of the mosque. So, in such a situation, I would like to know first how you perceive the future of the Gyanvapi Masjid and how the work of the Anjuman Intazamiya Masajid is progressing.

SM Yasin: Look, the reality is that the situation had started getting worse since 2014 and a number of cases were being filed in the courts. The pace of the worsening has increased since 2020. That is after the BJP won for the second time in the 2019 elections. The situation has worsened even more since 2021. All that I can say is that decisions are being taken in the courts, but justice is not being done. Wherever we go, the judiciary has not been fair to us. In the Ayodhya case too, it was the same situation. All the same, we thought that this matter will end with that case and nothing further will happen.

The Ayodhya case was exempted from the Places of Worship Act – the (Special Provisions) Act, 1991, which had stated that all places of worship should maintain the religious character as it existed on August 15, 1947- and we thought that the Act would be implemented in all other cases. We thought that there will be no more Ayodhya type cases. But such hopes evaporated in no time as it became evident that the judiciary, at various levels, was taking up other disputes on other places of worship too, and setting a fast schedule for decisions. And then the decisions started being taken in the courts one after the other. First,it allowed surveys to be conducted on Gyanvapi Masjid. The way these surveys were conducted was wrong, We had expectations from the Supreme Court also but we were disappointed from there too. After that, look at the decision taken by the judge on 31st January in 2024. In the run up to the judgement, there was a time when it was decided that the application had been disposed of, but the court strangely called back the application, re-read it and just gave permission for the puja to be conducted there. Our District Magistrate stated after the judgement that due process will be completed in ten days before implementing the verdict, but despite this, the barricading around the Masjid was broken on the very night of the judgement, and government officials sat inside the Masjid and got the puja done.

VRK: Incidentally, it was our portal The AIDEM that broke this hasty puja story.

SMY: Yes, it was you who broke the story in The AIDEM. It was from this story that we got the picture in which the Commissioner is sitting and doing puja with his child. Undoubtedly, all this is injustice, extreme injustice and we feel that there are attempts to vitiate the atmosphere day by day. Recently a Sadhu Maharaj came to the area and started abusing us. He and some others were standing outside the mosque, outside the gate and they were abusing, they were abusing the entire Muslim community. We went to the police station to file an FIR against them, but no FIR was registered.

VRK: What reason did the authorities give for not filing the FIR?

SMY: No reason was given. The so called sadhu got away with the vile abuses on us and our community. Then, on the day of Ram Navami, when some groups were taking out a ritualistic procession, they brandished swords, and shouted slogans exhorting to give one more push and break down the Gyanvapi Masjid. Further ahead, this very group went and beat up a policeman too, and no action has been taken on that too.

VRK: Evidently, a lot of terrible things are happening here. However, despite what may have happened here in Varanasi, the overall election campaign, even in other parts of Uttar Pradesh, is presenting a different picture. The Hindu communities,as a whole are not, on their own, advocating a communal agenda. Interestingly, when the election process started the slogans of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and its National Democratic Alliance (NDA) revolved around “Modi Ki Guarantee” and “Ab ki baar, 400 paar”. However, after the first two phases of polling,the language changed. It has become a blatant propaganda based on Hindus versus Muslims. Prime Minister Narendra Modi himself goes on record stating that if the Congress wins, that party will give away all the property of Hindus to the Muslims, even their Mangalsutra. What do you think has triggered this blatant communal campaign across the country?

SMY: As I said earlier, the situation is getting worse and worse. The leaders of BJP, are deliberately trying to make things worse. They are attempting to divide Hindus and Muslims to such an extent that they will never unite. I mean, they are trying to create such a situation from which there is no return. Varanasi, this city of ours is such a good city, there are such good Hindus here who are very fond of the city’s traditional harmony. But the attempts to vitiate the atmosphere are coming from the very top. We do not know how far it will go. Even a large number of Hindus are concerned. We found many such people, our Hindu brothers, who are saying, ‘Brother, the future of our children is getting spoiled. What will happen if this situation continues into the future? Even as such concerns get prominent, it is possible that in terms of political practice,the proponents of communal agenda may get the chair. But, a power attained thus is inherent with a divisive project, which will aggravate the communal differences among people and that will make the overall situation of the country really terrible.

VRK: But,even so, what I am seeing on the ground in the current election is that more and more Hindus are taking a position against Hindutva communalism. I think that this is a silver lining.

SMY: Indeed, what you pointed out is a silver lining. But the fact is, that even these people who stand for communal harmony are essentially hapless, because they cannot come out openly because of the fear of the powers that be.

VRK: However, I must add that the reports on voting trends that we are getting from the current elections show that many Hindu communities are going against Hindutva communalism and the BJP.

SMY: There are reasons for this. Wherever you look one can see disillusioned and frustrated youth who are facing extreme unemployment, despite being educated. Just go to a passport centre and you ask these youngsters, where they are and they would say they are going to Israel. If you ask them, hey brother, why are you going there, a place where bombs are raining, when our government claims that jobs are raining here, in India. And they would say, we don’t see where the jobs here are. And they would also say that it is better to go there and make some money amidst the grave dangers there, rather than dying of hunger from here. Unemployment is an issue and is very important today.

Similar is the case of inflation. Why is inflation so high? Business is on the downside everywhere. People in general, irrespective whether they are Hindus, Muslims or others, are increasingly stopping themselves from coming to the city. The situation is so severe that it seems, one day they will give up completely. Not only have the migration to towns from villages decreased, but we are also seeing that international tourism to Varanasi and other places are dipping. You do a survey of our hotels and you can see how occupancy rates are plummeting.

VRK: But the claim about Varanasi is that people from across the world are pouring in here, as more and more are coming to see the newly made Kashi Vishwanath Mandir corridor.

SMY: There is little doubt that people are coming to see the corridor, but this particular section of tourists alone will not be enough for things to work on the overall economic front and in terms of all-round development. The fact is the required all-round development is not happening. Only one industry is flourishing, that is the development of Hindu religious places. Various places and religious places are being rebuilt. And many of these constructions in the name of development of religious places are disturbing the everyday life of thousands of people. You can see very many instances of this in different parts of the city.

VRK: There are so many small temples in every part of Varanasi because it is believed that it is the oldest city in the world and has played an important role in the evolution of the Hindu faith.

SMY: Indeed, there are so many temples here and I seen with my own eyes, the times when even when there was a complete curfew in the city, those who used to do their daily puja, could go the Ganga Ji, take bath in the river, and go to worship in the Vishwanath temple. No one had any problem even during the time of curfew. No one would even look at them, even if they were passing through Muslim dominated areas. I believe that an understanding about this past and the effort to create a more divided society now is percolating slowly among people. That is why, in the context of all this, the young voter who used to come jumping to campaign and vote for BJP is now stopping a bit and asking, ‘Brother, what is happening?’. Earlier, if any one of us even raised a finger on the government, many people would come to challenge us, whether it is social media or any other platform, but the number of such vociferous pro-government supporters is coming down across all such platforms. If there were 10 to 15 vociferous supporters earlier, it has come down to four or five now. What this means electorally is that the BJP is stuck in many seats around this region. Indeed, Varanasi would be easily taken but that’s not the case in the seats around us.

VRK: Well, one is hearing similar assessments from other places too about BJP’s decreasing popularity. The possibility of BJP may not get the majority on its own and being forced to obtain the majority in collaboration with its NDA partners and even some parties beyond it is also being talked about. Some people even say that if the BJP gets less than 230 Lok Sabha seats then Modi will not remain the Prime Minister. And Amit Shah will no longer be the Home Minister.

All these electoral projections are in their place, and they may create some new concrete political reality. But, whatever the political and electoral situation, we have seen in the last few years that many questions are getting raised about the independence of our Judiciary. In such a context, what is the future of Gyanvapi you are seeing? Will it have a future similar to what happened to the Babri Masjid at Ayodhya in 1992?

SMY: I have responded to similar questions earlier too and I have said it earlier, and today I am saying it again, no, the rampaging crowds will not come, the crowd will not gather to demolish the mosque and create a social and political spectacle. Looking at the condition of the Judiciary there would be no need to do it. Political powers have only to say that they have said it earlier also that if the court gives a decision, we will make sure that it is followed. Now, what we are seeing are the serial decisions that are being made against us by the courts. Indeed, the Places of Worship Act has been thrown into the dustbin, the Constitution has been divested of its spirit and meaning.

Even this basic question as to how many years have we been here is being overlooked. Just analyse the 31st January order, the court itself acknowledged while passing it that no one had gone there for 31 years and no puja has been done, what is the meaning of sudden and hasty puja after 31 years? Now all this will happen under the control and auspices of the Judiciary and there is no need to repeat what happened at the Babri masjid in 1992. But, we do not have much hope that our Masjid will remain safe. See, both the Executive and Judiciary are not giving us justice or even considering our pleas fairly. So, what should we expect, obviously we are weak, we cannot come on the streets, neither have we come, nor will we come, many things have worsened in this city, the situation is getting worse day by day. We are being patient with ourselves, we say this to everyone, whatever happens do not let go of your cool, we will see how things can be addressed. And, if it is the will of God that our masjid should be taken away today after 600 years, they have the power, and can take it away, through the court, or through some other means. So, we are saying, you have the power, take it away, but the fact remains that you are snatching it. When you came here in 1986, you had also gone inside the mosque. You might have seen the fountain while being there. But, now it is being branded as a “Shiv-Ling”. We are in a situation where some officers would sit there and do puja and no one who should enforce the law would ask them how and from where they drew the authority to do something so blatantly illegal. No one would ask, neither Judiciary, nor Parliament, nor Prime Minister, nor Home Minister, nor our Chief Minister.

VRK: Is there any opposition party or people in the opposition who you think would raise these issues strongly?

SMY: No, because they also want votes. If our issue is raised by them they will be immediately branded as those who are doing appeasement.

VRK: But still, the common Muslims, especially the marginalised Muslims, have to address social and economic lives. For that, they need to consider their electoral options too. So, what is the political option for them?

SMY: We have got the right to vote, and these two powers are fighting in this election. We see one of them is fighting for justice, and the other is fighting to do injustice, So, we are with those who do justice.

VRK: So, what does it mean in practical terms?

SMY: The meaning is clear, I suppose. For me, it seems that the majority of Muslims are going in the right direction in this election.